[Artemisia] the "G" word

Fri Nov 4 13:45:22 CDT 2011

Again 'Gypsy' is not a racial slur. It is a reference to a nomadic people. By avoiding proper use of the word you give it the very power you are trying to avoid. I'm not going to stop asking for crackers with my soup because some people choose to use cracker as a racial slur. Also calling them by their correct ethnic name ie Rom, Dom, ect is no more a racial slur then saying some one is from Mexico rather than Hispanic. (Hispanic actually refers to the island of Hispanola, not Mexico) The only people that would take offence at the use of correct terminalolgy are the perpetually affended. If there are people in SCA using their Gypsy persona to offend others, I have not incountered it. If you are affended by my choice to portray a Gypsy, thats your choice, not something I made you do.
 Casper, Zita

________________________________
From: Andrea Balla aravis227 at hotmail.com

I apologize to Esther in advance if I have misinterpreted any of the things you've said and I'm about to reframe.  Feel free to correct me if anything I say is wrong.  

I don't believe her concern is for the feelings of the people in the SCA who CHOOSE a persona from a traditionally underprivileged class.  Her concern is for the feelings of the people who have NO choice in the matter.  She asks that we, who get to choose, show respect for the plight of those whose lives we recreate and that we show restraint in perpetuating negative stereotypes.  The best, better known example I can come up with is blackface.  It is a caricature of an underprivileged class that perpetuates the negative ideas about them.  Even if we do it without intending to be offensive, it doesn't change the negative impact of our choices.  I would also argue that taking the title of rogue is not the same as taking a title that denotes a negative racial stereotype.  Your race can not be changed...your behavior can.

As for the power of negative words.  As someone who has had multiple racial epithets hurled at them I know that I am a bit more sensitive about them than many who have never had that extremely unique experience.  There is absolutely no place for negative racial words in polite society.  Hate has given those words power and, yes, some groups have appropriated those words as a way to reduce the power they have.  However, if we are not members of those groups, then we have no right to use them or to define how those words should be taken and used.  That is possibly a little bit hypocritical...but we're talking about hate language, so we don't start from a place of logic or intellect and it's difficult to bring it back to one. 

I know that I have spoken strongly in regards to racist speech, but it is something that I feel very strongly about and something that has hurt me immensely in the past.

~Maysun

> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 20:43:06 -0600
> From: hellfyrenbrymstone at gmail.com
> To: artemisia at lists.gallowglass.org
> Subject: Re: [Artemisia] the "G" word
> 
> Esther,
> 
> I can understand your point, however, there are many MANY peoples that have
> been persecuted, trounced upon, sacrificed in the name of whatever god,
> etc.  Many of them are active personaes within the SCA.  Hell, I'm a
> Norman, we were persecuted ALL the time...we were bad guys (with lofty
> intentions - Just ask the Pope!).  The point should be to actively research
> your personae to the point that you at least KNOW what you are portraying.
> I am a perfect example, as Helchen the *ROGUE* of Capua, I am admitting
> that I am a law breaker, a Scoundrel, a person who was branded a thief at
> some point, literally in most cases.  In using that as my personae I
> embrace that part of me.  I am not always chivalrous, I am not always going
> to take the high road.  Obviously I am not going to break any mundane laws,
> nor truly steal from anyone, I may "acquire" a sword or "borrow" a dagger
> in the heat of battle and very well may end up killing the owner with his
> own weapon...all of which you would NEVER see a faithful Crusader do.  But
> hell yes a Norman mercenary would.  Just ask Morgan how evil we truly
> are...and how much we really hate the stench of the Saxons!
> 
> My point is, its how you play the game we are in.  We are re-creationists
> and while not every personae is going to be well accepted, if it was
> period, then people shouldn't get bent out of shape about it.  Viking,
> Norman, Crusader, Mongol, Saxon (blech) have ALL been used as derogatory
> words in period AND by people in this very Kingdom!  I don't see how Gypsy
> is any different.  And anyone portraying a Gypsy personae should be well
> versed enough to know that yes, it was not used in the best light, yes
> their people have been persecuted, however, those people have made a choice
> in portraying that.  Therefore it should come as no shock to them when
> someone uses the term in regard to them.  I certainly am FULLY aware of
> being called a thief, rabble, Norman, Merc, vile Normandy scum...whatever!
> I welcome it...were I not thick skinned enough to handle it, I'd have
> chosen a nice comfy late period italian ren personae hehe.
> 
> Granted, some of us do have alternate belly dance personaes.  Am I as
> meticulous with my bellydance kit as I am with my Norman kit?  No.  But I
> do take enough pride in my garb/personae/appearance to make sure that at
> least my stuff is passable.  I'm not an amazing dancer, I am not a
> wonderful drummer, but I do it because I love to move, and when the drums
> beckon I can't stay still.  Will I shun a dancer that's in a coin belt, a
> turban & an earring?  No!  Especially if that's all they have.  I want as
> many dancers around that fire as we can muster...it takes a HELL of a lot
> of guts to get out and do it in the first place.  The best you can do is to
> help educate people and hope they take it in stride.  And I realize that
> was all you were trying to do.
> 
> Just know that a negative is not always a negative.  And if a person wants
> to be a Gypsy, a Pirate, a Viking or a Muslim, so be it!  I'm just happy we
> still have people at events enough to fight, dance, party & learn.
> 
> After all...that's what the Dream is all about.  Fun!
> 
> HL Helchen the Rogue (A thief in tribal clothing)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Tal <talanesea at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> > While I agree with you on the the clothing, we are the SCA after all, I
> > disagree with you on the language.  I don't always use the word "Viking" in
> > the nicest light, but it's authentic to the time.  One of the things I wish
> > we had more of in the SCA is the getting into our actual persona instead of
> > talking about it like it's a different person.  I'd like to hear about
> > where someone came from in the first person.  Perhaps it's the theatre geek
> > in me, but the C is for creative.
> >
> > Tal
> >
> > PS - Some of my best friends are Vikings.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: artemisia-bounces at lists.gallowglass.org [mailto:
> > artemisia-bounces at lists.gallowglass.org] On Behalf Of Sonda Stott
> > Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 5:22 PM
> > To: Kingdom of Artemisia mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [Artemisia] the "G" word
> >
> > Esther, I must disagree with you.
> > First, all of our personas are ' idealized fantasy'. Otherwise this
> > wouldnt be any fun.
> >
> > Second, the term 'Gypsy' does not refer to the Romani people exlusively.
> > It is more commonly used to reference a nomadic person.
> >    Gyp·sy
> >  <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/G04/G0425500"
> > target="_blank"><img src="
> > http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/speaker.gif" border="0"
> > alt="gypsy pronunciation" /></a> /ˈdʒɪpsi/  Show Spelled [jip-see]  Show
> > IPA noun, plural -sies, adjective
> >    noun
> >    1. a member of a nomadic, Caucasoid people of generally swarthy
> > complexion, who migrated originally from     India, settling in various
> > parts of Asia, Europe, and, most recently, North America.
> >    2. Romany; the language of the Gypsies.
> >    3. (lowercase) a person held to resemble a gypsy, especially in
> > physical characteristics or in a traditionally     ascribed freedom or
> > inclination to move from place to place.
> >    4. (lowercase) Informal. gypsy cab.
> >    5. (lowercase) Informal. an independent, usually nonunion trucker,
> > hauler, operator, etc.
> >
> > Third, not all gypsies are dark skinned romani decendents. There are
> > 'gypsies' all over the world. http://www.scottishgypsies.co.uk/ 
> >
> > Fourth, brightly colored dresses, headcoverings and multiple scarves are
> > not just Hollywood fluff. The first places the gypsies were documented as
> > an ethnic group are the Kingdom of Hungary and the surrounding countries.
> > The traditional dress of these native people is brightly colored and often
> > clashing. Originally the gypsies did try to assimilate and dress like their
> > fellow countrymen. There are records and documents that the gypsies married
> > into their local communites, so the idea that they isolated themselves is
> > false. It was only after their continuing immigration that the receiving
> > governments started trying to control them.
> >
> > Fith, if some of us want to put on pretty skirts and scarves with bells to
> > dance, celebrate life and have a good time, why is that problem? It's no
> > different than those that choose to wear a fox tail pinned to the back of
> > their skirt because they think its cute and fun, when originally this was a
> > sign of a woman for hire. It certainly doesn',t mean that in the SCA.
> >
> > Casper, Zita
> > Kingdom of Hungary 1356
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: "arwenmc at aol.com" <arwenmc at aol.com>
> > To: artemisia at lists.gallowglass.org
> > Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2011 1:34 PM
> > Subject: [Artemisia] the "G" word
> >
> >
> > Hey all,  I've been giving this subject a lot of thought lately and I
> > thought I'd share my opinion.  Please know I'm not one of those type of
> > people looking to be offended where offense is not intended.  I'm only
> > looking to be informative on this particular topic.
> >
> > The SCA and the mundane belly dance community sometimes intersect.  It's
> > been very popular in both communities to have what people like to call a
> > Gypsy persona.  Please be aware that the word Gypsy is now  widely
> > considered a pejorative term for ethnic Romani and related groups.  There
> > are movements to reclaim the word, but it's better to err on the side of
> > caution as a person not of that very persecuted ethnic group.  Please ask
> > them what they prefer to be called.
> >
> > Because these people have been horribly treated and still are, we should
> > try to avoid garb that looks like a Hollywood racial stereotype, i.e.
> > headscarf, hoop earrings, coin belt, and what not.  The romance of
> > traveling the "Gypsy Trial" is an idealized fantasy.  If you are interested
> > in leaning more, I'd like to recommend  Dr. Ian Hancock's book "We are the
> > Romani People."
> >
> > Thank you for your kind attention.
> >
> > Esther
> > not one of "the people"
> >
> > I feel I must make two points regarding this topic- 1]  The Romani family
> > I knew when I lived in Billings preferred Gypsy to Romani, they said too
> > many Montanans thought Romani meant "from  Rome" (at least that's what they
> > told me).
> > 2]  As with the dreaded "N word", "S word" {hispanics}, "R word" {mentally
> > handicapped}, "F word" {homosexuals}, and the other half-dozen or so
> > "offensive words", I believe and will maintain until my dying day that the
> > words themselves have no power, it is the *context and intent of the user*
> > that matters.  If you doubt me, replace the "offensive word" with any other
> > descriptive term in the same context, it will be just as offensive.
> >
> > Of course, I could be wrong.
> > Morgan
> >
> >
> > Baron Morgan Blaidd Du,
> > GHA(2), CQC, PCA, CCH;
> >
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