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<DIV>LARGENESS: to be bigger than the norm. Large, larger, very large, ie.
"largeness"</DIV>
<DIV><EM>"He was amazed at the largeness of the
pyramids" </EM>See, largeness.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Uh Oh!!! <STRONG>Largesse</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>OOPS, wrong definition.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>He He He,</DIV>
<DIV>Ulric<EM> </EM></DIV>
<DIV><EM></EM> </DIV>
<DIV>Everyone lighten up!! It was a discussion topic not a personal
attack. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Although I agree with Sir Gregory and Sir Conrad, in fact all the
Sirs....just like a good squire should.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:GregO@cfdebt.com">Greg Olsen</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:artemisia@lists.gallowglass.org">artemisia@lists.gallowglass.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:26
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Artemisia] Largesse</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Therasia wrote:</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2><snipped dictionary definition of largesse></FONT> <BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2>>That's right: largesse - in period, the tool of the
left-handed put-down </FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> of one's social
inferiors through the giving of money or goods. The difference
</FONT><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> between largesse and generosity is the
difference between Carnegie and Smithson. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Actually Therasia, the etymology of largesse listed
does not correspond to the definition given. That definition is the
modern definition, or in other words how it's meaning got changed through
time. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>A quick internet search brings this up (</FONT><A
href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=largesse&r=67"><U><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=largesse&r=67</FONT></U></A><FONT
face=Arial size=2>)</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>"[Middle English
largesse, from Old French, from large, generous, from Latin largus.]"</FONT>
<BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Stress *generous*, nothing about being a
put-down. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>From the same page…</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>"Largess \Lar"gess\, Largesse \Lar"gesse\, n. [F. largesse, fr. large.
See Large, a.] 1. Liberality; generosity; bounty. [Obs.]"</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Here we see the "period" or obscure definition
given. Still no mention of it being a put-down issue, left-handed or
otherwise.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Unfortunately I'm at work now and can't break out
Lull, DeChargny, et al to give their actual medieval in-context definitions
verbatim, or even Maurice Keen's dissected definition of Largesse from period,
but from what I can remember they make no mention of it being "left-handed" or
a "put-down" or anything of similar meaning. I will give you that
Largesse did sometimes mean helping those in need, and in period that may have
meant giving to those in a lower station (although I am dubious as to how
often that may have actually happened). I think this corresponds to the sense
Noblesse Oblige (we'll get back to that). But it was also standard practice
that you were expected to host visiting nobility, especially higher-ups. This
would also be Largesse.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now it can be argued that Noblesse Oblige is simply
a nice way of saying "left-handed put-down of one's social inferiors." But
then by following that logic fairly closely you could say the same thing about
philanthropy. I guess my point is that Largesse can be seen a put-down, or
even used as a put-down, but I everything that I have read from primary
sources leads me to believe that it didn't actually mean that. And more
importantly, it shouldn't be interpreted that way into the SCA context
especially if you subscribe to the idea of "the middle ages as they should
have been" and you take the virtues of chivalry at face value.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>I do think you raise a valid point that the virtues
of chivalry espoused in the middle of our period may not be the best way to
rate Peers, and as I have said earlier in this discussion, everyone's going to
have a different list of criteria, some based on earlier or later period
philosophies, some from their own modern gut, and most I think with a
combination. That's fine and there's no way to change that. But I
think there is some value in delving into the virtues as expressed by Lull,
DeChargny and their relative contemporaries, and I also think that it is a
fine jumping off point for people to *begin* thinking about peer criteria, but
it's foolish to believe that it will ever be or should be the only
yardstick.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Gregory</FONT> </P><BR><BR><BR>
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