[Artemisia] Religion 'n' SCA/Site Tokens/Faith

Thu Nov 20 19:23:11 CST 2003

Dearest Conrad,

There are different ways to interpret this reading of Corpora, some of which are stricter than others.  I tend to lean toward a rather strict reading, but I think you're right-- if alternative site tokens were offered, crosses would probably be ok.   

However, the passage "or to force anyone at a Society event, by direct or indirect pressure, to observe or join the ceremony" implies to me that if prayers or rituals were openly conducted in a public place at an event, such as at a battlefield, this would be forcing others to observe it.  On the other hand, if a group of like-minded people decided to have religious services in their camp, this would be fine, unless the services were so loud that neighboring camps would have no choice but to overhear.  

As for my opinion on this particular site token issue, I am not too easily offended in religious matters, but that's partly because I'm not a religious person.  To me, it's all someone else's issue, unless it's hateful or it targets me personally.  I find it appropriate and authentic that religion should be a part of people's personas, and I have no problem with period displays of personal faith, as long as nobody tries to get me personally involved with that display.  If I came to an event in my Persian persona, I wouldn't wear a cross-shaped token, but I would keep it in my basket, and it wouldn't bother me.  If I were hosting an event, however, I would look for a non-religious token.  

Ellen

----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Heisler Jr.
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 5:06 PM
To: Kingdom of Artemisia mailing list
Subject: Re: [Artemisia] Religion 'n' SCA/Site Tokens/Faith

Greetings to the Aerie and especially to Her lovely Excellency Ellen,

Briefly, you say . . . .

"Then there's the prohibition of public prayer and religious ritual.  I agree that a pre-battle prayer is authentic, and if tastefully done, probably not offensive to many.  But what if the prayer leader did not do it tastefully, but lapsed into hellfire and brimstone-type speech?  Remember, you can't legislate good taste.  And what if on the other end of the field, fighters were publicly conducting a voodoo ritual designed to injure their opponents?  What if some of the fighters targeted by the ritual believed in voodoo, and that they were now cursed to a painful death?  Condone one, and you're allowing the other also."

About religion, corpora specifically states . . .

II.  Events; F.  Policy on Religion - Having no wish to recreate the religious conflicts of the period under study, the Society shall neither establish nor prohibit any system of belief among its members.  No one shall perform any religious or magical ceremony at a Society event (or in association with the name of the Society) in such a way as to imply that the ceremony is authorized, sponsored, or promulgated by the Society or to force anyone at a Society event, by direct or indirect pressure, to observe or join the ceremony.  However, this provision is in no way intended to discourage the study of historical belief systems and their effects on the development of Western culture.

Except as provided herein, neither the Society nor any member acting in its name or that of any of its parts shall interfere with any person's lawful ceremonies, nor shall any member discriminate against another upon grounds related to either's system of belief."

Corpora ~ January 2002 revision

Now, what this says to me is that if a holy person of whatever faith wants to get a gaggle of willing fighters together on the battlefield and give them a fire and brimstone speech or sacrifice chickens or do the 'druidic dance of destruction' then they can, as long as it is not suggested that it is Society sanctioned.  And if the enemy chooses to be struck dead by God or the curse or the dance then the second section says they have the right to do so (and drop willy nilly) without Society interference.

However, I think you are correct that handing out religious pamphlets at the Troll Booth is specifically prohibited because the troll booth is a place you MUST visit and is Official Society spot.  However, if the 'Close Associates of Jesus' want to set up a tent down from the troll booth and hand out religious literature to anyone willing to receive it, then such must be tolerated (within the rules of the site, event, etc.).

What this means as far as site tokens are concerned I'm not sure.  It certainly by the previous standard would seem that a site token could go either way, and it would be the INTENT of the event staff that made the token either a token or a religious statement, thereby violating the rules of Corpora.  So, I think, that if you have several tokens available and some of them could be percieved to be religious in nature, but others could not and the recipient was free to choose which they'd like, then you'd be safe.

I'm not a lawyer, but I always wanted to play one on TV.

Sincere respects to Artemisia and of course my undying respect and affection to Her Excellency,

Conrad

Ellen Stavash <EStavash at msn.com> wrote:
Regarding the matter of cross-shaped site tokens, Isabeau is right.  It isn't a matter of taste, but of Corpora.  Roughly speaking, Corpora allows personal religious display, but the moment any display or activity is designed to affect others, it is forbidden.  At a glance, this seems harsh, but think about it from a legal perspective.  When you make laws, you can't assume that everyone will act with discretion and good taste.   

For instance, why can't a group require people to carry items of a religious nature?  Most people won't be offended by being given a cross, pentagram, etc. as a site token.  But what if you were required to pick up a pamphlet of religious literature at the gate as well?  This is also an item of a religious nature, and some could argue that a piece of paper is less sacred than a pewter cross, and therefore less important.  Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who truly don't understand why the literature would be more offensive than the site token.  Or what do you do with someone who wants to use, say, a burning cross as a site token, and thinks that those who protest are just being too PC?  You can't legislate for common sense or good intentions, and you can't simply make a list of forbidden objects, because someone out there will find a way to get around it. ("Well, nobody said that cutting up Koran pages and shaping them into Easter bunnies was against the rules...")

Then there's the prohibition of public prayer and religious ritual.  I agree that a pre-battle prayer is authentic, and if tastefully done, probably not offensive to many.  But what if the prayer leader did not do it tastefully, but lapsed into hellfire and brimstone-type speech?  Remember, you can't legislate good taste.  And what if on the other end of the field, fighters were publicly conducting a voodoo ritual designed to injure their opponents?  What if some of the fighters targeted by the ritual believed in voodoo, and that they were now cursed to a painful death?  Condone one, and you're allowing the other also.

Anyway, I'll get off the soapbox now... can you tell I live with a lawyer?

Ellen

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