[Artemisia] Heraldic Suicide (was: For Dicussion - College of Heraldry return in 2000)

[Stephanae Baker]

I'm grateful to both you, Mistress Therasia, and to the Baroness  
Shauna for taking the time to express your opinions about this issue.  
I have learned a lot, although some of your discussion went over my  
head, I'm afraid, Mistress Therasia. I'm obviously ignorant about a  
lot of period name things: Ella de Verne vs. Eilis O'Bourne?  
Rosamonde of the Garden--that one's floating around in my brain as a  
reference I should catch but can't quite put my finger on? I did get  
Joseph and Emma of Palmyra. I guess living in Utah all my life has  
familiarized me with some useless trivia.

I think that what both your opinions have helped me do is really put  
my finger on my objection to the decision. I think I would agree with  
Baroness Shauna and the decision made at the time had Palme d'Or been  
another order in the SCA, where it was likely to cause name confusion  
among non-French speaking populace members if both were ever  
mentioned together. However, to protect a French speaking group of  
people from two common words like apple and palm makes no sense to me  
at all.

Baroness Shauna, I am not a member of Arn Hold and have no idea  
whatsoever what ever happened with their order and so have no basis  
for appeal. I brought the decision up as a topic of interest only. I  
am certain some members of Arn Hold are on this list, and I would be  
curious to know what eventually happened to this order and what name  
it ended up with.

Thank you again,
Belladonna



On Aug 11, 2007, at 12:00 AM, Dr. C. M. Helm-Clark Ph.D. wrote:

>
>>> First of all, I'd like to say that overall I appreciate the College
>>> of Heralds for attempting to ensure that when we go to the  
>>> trouble to
>>> register our names and devices, they are protected. For example, I
>>> fully support their protection of Adelicia Gilwell's arms. But,  
>>> to me
>>> (a French speaker) the word pomme sounds very unlike the word  
>>> palme--
>>> they have completely different vowel sounds, and there's no l in
>>> pomme--and when I hear them, they conjure completely different  
>>> images
>>> in my head. It's kind of like saying that "The Golden Poem" and "The
>>> Golden Palm" are the same in English. In addition, I think the  
>>> French
>>> speakers who organize the Cannes Film Festival would laugh at this
>>> protection rather than appreciating it, not because they take their
>>> intellectual property lightly, but because, they too, would hear
>>> these words completely differently.
>
> I find I have a completely different take on this issue than Shauna  
> does
> - and maybe that's why I don't play book heraldry anymore, something I
> used to spend a great deal of time on...  I agree with your take on  
> the
> silliness of the name conflict decision - and it is exactly that in my
> mind: silly.  To me, it's like there's the SCA - and then above and  
> beyond
> it, there's SCA Heraldry...  It's kinda like saying, there's life  
> and then
> there's what it taken as real in a court of law...  Have you even  
> had the
> misadventure of sitting through a court case, especially a civil suit?
> Basically, there's common sense - and then there's the law...  It's  
> how
> we get million dollar decisions against McDonald's for spilled  
> coffee and
> assault convictions in California in cases where someone told an  
> unruly
> customer they were no longer welcome in a store...
>
> That's the analogy that I've come to apply to the College of Arms over
> the years - and I'm speaking as one who used to be counted among the
> CoA faithful.  Now I'm a heretic.  And I have nothing against the  
> Laurel
> in charge when the decision was made - I have known Elsbeth Ann  
> Roth since
> she was a rank newby in the SCA, and I'll say no more before I really
> date myself (which I know would make my husband jealous, since he  
> doesn't
> like it when I go out on dates that aren't with him, even when I'm  
> just
> dating me...silly boy...).  Anyway, Elsbeth Ann Roth is a sweet  
> kid..er, gal...
>
> But some of the College of Arms (aka CoA) decisions over the years do
> push a lot of limits of incredulity, not as they are seen in "heraldic
> space" but as they are seen by normal everyday populous types who  
> look at
> the world through eyes not skewed by the SCA heraldic perspective. My
> personal opinion is that you have hit upon the single largest  
> failing of
> the CoA in the SCA.  In many ways, the books heralds live in a world a
> bit removed from the rest of us.  Basically I agree with you: there is
> an obvious difference between the Palme d'Or and a Pomme d'Or, and as
> someone who grew up listening to enough Quebecois to be able to order
> petit dejeuner and not be laughed at in Montreal, I would opine  
> that at
> least most New Englanders and the residents of the Republique  
> Populaire
> de Quebec would know the difference right off the bat, not to mention
> all the folks you pointed out in Fifth Republic...especially if you
> consider that most of the French speakers think of those words as  
> LaPalme
> and LePomme, not as Palme and Pomme...  but here across the ocean  
> in the
> over-sensitized american culture of five billion disclaimers on your
> coffee cups and billions of unnecessary SCA waivers forever on file, I
> think the wash-over of needless protections spreads as far as the CoA
> where senior heralds assume conflict and offense over the non-problem
> of someone French mistaking La Palme for Le Pomme.  It is a failure to
> apply common sense on who would really be offended...as you have  
> already
> rightfully concluded.
>
> I do not want to give the impression that heralds suck in the SCA...
> because they certainly do not.  Heralds as an office do not have any
> problems above and beyond any other office in the SCA. There are great
> heralds and there are not so great heralds and one can say that about
> any and every office in the SCA Inc.  Heralds do not qualify as the
> spawn of Satan, etc., etc. etc...
>
> There are and have been some tremendous book heralds in the SCA.  I  
> had
> dinner with another refugee of the CoA in June in DC where he was  
> telling
> me how he might get a job with the Army in their office that designs
> unit heraldry, in part because of his expertise, most of it grown in
> the SCA, on real world heraldry. Some of the SCA heraldic expertise  
> has
> been truly world-class - but I am afraid that some of it has been more
> akin to legalistic skewed viewpoints too, where Palmes and equated  
> with
> Pommes  -but I can name you examples of where the sound comparison  
> standard
> has failed spectacularly (e.g. Ella de Verne vs. Eilis O'Bourne)  
> and wily
> people continually game the system to take advantage of the gaps in
> self-appointed expertise of amateur experts in the CoA (e.g. Joseph  
> and Emma
> of Palmyra - how the hell did they get those names passed???   
> Anyone up for
> testing Rosamonde of the Garden as a name sub???).  It's a damning way
> to state the problem, but I can think of no tactful way to saywhat  
> I have
> found (and many others have also found) over the years: the  
> conflict standards
> are flawed on the side of being silly and the court of appeals on  
> bounces is
> not unbiased because it's Laurel, who is the grand poobah of the  
> whole biased
> submission system and not someone who necessarily lives on the  
> ground with the
> rest of us who know that apples are not fronds...
>
> Opinion: the heraldic submission workers of the SCA are invested in a
> self-perpetuating skewed viewpoint on conflict that is somewhat  
> removed from
> street-level common sense and is incapable of being fixed because  
> the experts
> with the knowledge to fix it are source of the skewed viewpoint to  
> begin with.
> (physician heal thyself?)  And the system will continue to pass  
> things that
> should bounce and bounce things that should pass because no panel  
> of self-
> appointed amateur experts that volunteer to vet conflicts with a  
> growing
> number of subsmissions and a falling number of volunteers will ever  
> be able
> to tackle the problem successfully - as I predicted in 1987 in the  
> proceedings
> of the Known World Heraldic Symposium back when we could have  
> actually done
> something to fix the system and now have lost the opportunity,  
> maybe forever...
> but that's a whole different post for some other evening of  
> ranting, again
> with the feeling that it's just hot air because the CoA (and the  
> whole SCA)
> will likely fall apart and fail as an organization because the  
> flaws are
> inherent in the founding vision of the group back in 1966-1968 and  
> there's no
> one at the top with the perspective, vision and ability to make the  
> needed
> changes...geez, how's that for an optimistic outlook???
>
> just my opinion, folks - and as I am fond of pointing out, opinions  
> are
> like sphincters...everyone has one or more...
>
> I have my asbestos garb on for any new or used heralds who wish to  
> disagree...
> otherwise, I'll just crawl back into my hole now...
> ;-)
>
> ttfn
> Therasia
> (please note new preferred email address...)
>
>
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