[Artemisia] Chivalry and Opinions

Fri Nov 18 11:54:56 CST 2011

I must say...to this very post...Vivat!

There are so many versions of what Chivalry is or isn't, even within our
own group.  Not just our Kingdom, our very own Chivalry List.  I have, as a
Squire gone to several Knights whom I have great respect for and asked very
specifically what they think the Knightly Virtues are and how they define
Chivalry.  I can tell you with great specifics, that not one of our Knights
has told me the same thing.  I started this "quest" because as a Man at
Arms statements were being bantered around about how non-belts must "follow
the Knightly Virtues" to be on the path of Knighthood.  Yet no one was
taking the time to tell us non-belts exactly what those virtues were.  So
I, being an inquisitive of mind, decided to find out exactly what they
meant.  Needless to say, a year later, I am still defining that question,
and the fact that there are no clear cut answers, makes me quest for it
more!

I look at "Knights of Mayhem" exactly as Duke Alan has so graciously put
it...as a possible path to Medieval History.  Whether its period or not, it
gets people, the likes of whom may not have ever thought of playing within
our Dream, at least consider looking into something more.  At least more so
than they would have watching NASCAR.  I think any spark that can lead them
to us (or similar groups like us) is wonderful.

The fact that William has done so well, is doing what he enjoys and has
made it far beyond anything that most of us only dream of...is wonderful.
I have actually got to put on some of the armor he has made for the show
and its pretty damn awesome!  I am not a fan of jousting really, I can't
get into the "fray" as easily as I can fighting heavy, but more power to
those that can do such wonderful things on the back of a gigantic beast!

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and everyone is entitled to free
speech.  The missing component more often than not is respect.  Respect for
everyone, not just those people you like.  Unfortunately, it is lacking
more and more these days.  Again, even within our own groups.  How often
have you heard heavy fighters criticise the fencers?  Yet, THEY are the
ones using more period equipment, period stances, period garb much more so
than the heavys do.  There's even more period reference material for
fencing than any other form of fighting, yet we "stick jocks" can't let it
go that they're just "swishy pokes" hehe.  And granted some is done in good
fun...because we all know a heavy would never fence, at least not until
he's a Duke >;p  But at times, I've seen the animosity almost come to
blows.  Yet we are all part of the same organization, the same Kingdom,
hell the same household sometimes!  And we can't always get along...but if
we tried to have more respect for what the other group is trying to
accomplish, the better off we ALL are.

Same goes for SCA vs. Knights of Mayhem.  It takes guts to put yourself out
there, it takes a lot to stand up for what you want and go for it.  How
many SCA-centric shows have people talked about creating but never got off
the ground...yet here's jousting on TV!  I gotta give respect for getting
it that far...regardless of content...it got MADE!

I think we all could use the ideals of chivalry (no matter what you think
they are), respect and honor in how we deal with our fellow humans,
regardless of the topic, and still be able to voice our own opinions, loud
or not.  As long as we remember everyone else has the right to express
theirs too.  So before you open that door, remember that and prepare
yourself accordingly.

Two specific points I would whole heartedly agree with Duke Alan on...

1) Cowboy Up!  Amen brother...
2) A Knights Tale Rocked!!!

Rogue

On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 8:59 AM, <dukealan at q.com> wrote:

> All,
>
> This past discussion has been interesting....and bothersome to me in some
> ways.  Many have opined on what chivalry is, or isn't.  In their opinion.
>  And what chivalrous actions are, or are not....in their opinion.
>
> What colors our ideas about what "chivalry" is, or is not?  Modern "pop"
> culture has led to some different ways of looking at things.  To put things
> in perspective, for some of us, definitions of chivalry and chivalrous
> actions are found by....gasp...reading books by those who discuss it.
>  Surely, some of these books were written in Victorian times, and idealized
> what knights and chivalry were considered to be.  But some of them go back
> into medieval times and define what chivalry is...or is not.
>
> Lord Tennyeson (sp?) wrote of King Arthur and his ideas of what chivalry
> was.  Others wrote about Arthur as well.  Did you know that King Arthur was
> idealized in period as well?  Hmmmm, did that color some of "their"
> concepts of chivalry and chivalrous behavior?  Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, of
> Sherlock Holmes fame, wrote of chivalry and chivalrous behavior in Sir
> Nigel and The White Company.  Doyle got much of his info from period
> sources on chivalry.  If you have not read these books, you should consider
> it.  Especially, if you want to speak in any kind of educated level about
> chivalry.  Really.  Read Ivanhoe.  It's great to have an opinion...it's
> even better to have an opinion based on some factual basis.
>
> Before I continue, please understand that I am extrodinarily proud of what
> William, my squire, has accomplished in his present employment.  He has
> brought a higher level of authenticity to his current employers
> presentation.  As mentioned by others, William conducts himself in a manner
> that does him honor.  He has gone and done, what others just talk about
> (and talk, and talk and talk...but don't do).
>
> Now something else that has kinda bothered me, and it goes far beyond this
> discussion, or the SCA, but is found in "modern" thought and "norms", is
> the condemnations about speaking and expressing an opinion.  The absurd
> fear that expressing an opinion....gasp....may offend someone, somehow.
>  This has led to some PC nonsense that has begun to defy reality and common
> sense.  I reject this notion.
>
> When the "Knights of Mayhem" chose their name, they made themselves
> subject to opinion.  Period.  From SCA people, or any other people who
> honor the concept of Knighthood and Chivalry.  How would King Arthur view a
> group with the name of "Knights of Mayhem"?  It may sound SO COOL to the
> modern MMA hype of pop culture, but to others....not so much.  When they
> put their show on TV, they willingly entered the realm of exposure to
> opinion.  Does Charlie Andres shrink from the very thought of offending
> anyone....are you on dope?  Charlie revels in it, and it's part of his
> "show".
>
> And in defense of the Knights of Mayhem, they are exposing more people to
> jousting (albeit, their style of jousting), and by extension, medieval
> history.  At least some of their audience is likely to do a bit of research
> and maybe learn something about medieval history...who knows, maybe that
> interest will lead them to the SCA.
>
> So, for those who have said that since it's not SCA, we have no right to
> an opinion, or to discuss it here, I respectfully, and with full hope of
> not offending anyone, say this.  POUND SAND.
>
> But if you choose to take offense, when none is offered, then the problem
> is yours, not someone else's.  Cowboy up and accept responsibility that YOU
> choose to take offense.  Get over it.  It's not personal.  How many of us
> have the movie "Knights Tale" in our collection of DVD's?  It's a great
> movie....it's got horrible costumes, it's got some crappy armor from a
> mish-mash of periods.  It's based in Hollywood fantasy, and not in any
> excess of medieval reality.  But we still like it.  Weird.
>
> Oh geez....I just expressed an opinion, based or fact, about something.
>  Please don't be offended....but if you are, guess who's problem it is?  If
> you need a clue to help you along figuring it out, it's not my problem if
> you choose to be offended because I expressed an opinion about "Knights
> Tale".  That concept extends beyond "Knights Tale".
>
> I enjoy discussion, and I enjoy learning things from people.  Sometimes
> that's places to go for research, and sometimes that's just hearing other
> people's opinions.  Please don't try to limit people's ability or
> willingness to express their opinion...however misfounded...or not.
>
> YIS,   Alan
>
>
>
>
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