[Artemisia] Winning or Just Not Losing?

Mellane McCammon mellane30 at gmail.com
Thu Oct 1 18:06:21 CDT 2015 

I don't know what YMMV means. And this is a different discussion than what
I had originally responded to.

On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 4:15 PM, danoman1000 . <danoman1000 at gmail.com> wrote:

> "What is stopping anyone, be they fighter, crown, or part of a body or
> group, from abusing that power?" - Vigdis
>
> This is why I like the idea of transferring legislative power from the
> crown to a parliamentary body.  So no one person has the power.
> Obviously the fighters are no more prone to abusing power than anyone
> else.  But as we now have it, the only qualification to have the final say
> on all decisions is winning one tournament.  I have no problem with that
> being the only qualification to give out awards and run court.  But the
> ability to rewrite the law seems more important than that to me.  YMMV.
>
> Sneferu
>
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 2:41 PM, Mellane McCammon <mellane30 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I don't disagree with the concept. Originally it was asked why only
> > fighters were allowed to gain the crown. That was the question I was
> > responding to. This topic is a completely different debate because now
> > we're asking about the abilities that lie with the crown, now how it's
> > obtained.
> > And you are correct in asking 'what is stopping other from doing so'. But
> > that's a rhetorical question. What is stopping anyone, be they fighter,
> > crown, or part of a body or group, from abusing that power? Anyone can
> > abuse power. Transfer of power is still power.
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Amber Snurkowski <
> > syeira.caminante at gmail.com
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > That is generally correct about NorthShield.
> > > The crown is involved but on a much smaller level. The Stallari runs
> much
> > > of the day to day business.
> > > It works well for them.
> > >
> > > Syeira
> > > (Immigrant from NorthShield)
> > > On Oct 1, 2015 1:53 PM, "danoman1000 ." <danoman1000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > "...what would be fair?" - Vigdis
> > > >
> > > > Personally I like the model I've heard described by a friend in
> > > > Northshield.  From what I'm told their crown gives out awards and
> does
> > > all
> > > > the ceremonial and fun things our crowns do, but they leave all
> > > > the legislative stuff (revisions to law, banishments, dispute
> > resolution,
> > > > etc.) to the "Stellar Committee"
> > > >  a parliamentary body with representatives from each group.
> Obviously
> > > I've
> > > > only heard of it second hand, but it seems like a fair and period way
> > to
> > > go
> > > > about it.
> > > >
> > > > Sneferu
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 1:30 PM, Mellane McCammon <
> mellane30 at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello all,
> > > > >
> > > > > On some of the assertions made, it is correct that the only way to
> > win
> > > > > crown tournament is by fighting. The people that usually win those
> > > > > tournaments, as well as other tournaments, have put in countless
> > hours
> > > of
> > > > > training and work to get good enough to be a crown contender. These
> > > > people
> > > > > often are involved in the other activities of the SCA as well. If
> it
> > > > > doesn't make sense that a person who is good at combat is a good
> > ruler,
> > > > > then how would it make sense that someone good in an art would be a
> > > good
> > > > > ruler? Would a pelican be a good ruler? There is no way to know
> until
> > > the
> > > > > person has ruled. If we are strictly going by the idea of who would
> > be
> > > a
> > > > > good ruler, then we would have to turn more towards politics and
> > > > > candidates. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your view,
> > this
> > > > > would turn a great many people away. Not only from our sport of
> > > fighting,
> > > > > but from the SCA as a whole. If it is unfair (which is a word I
> > > despise)
> > > > > then what would be fair? Regardless of the debate regarding 'how
> > should
> > > > > crowns be determined', I do not believe it is quibbling with
> regards
> > to
> > > > > cheating. Every sport, from Football to Olympic swimming deals with
> > > > > cheating on one level or another. To say that we're quibbling about
> > > > > cheating is rather insulting to all of us that play in our sport.
> It
> > is
> > > > > important to us, rather it's in a tournament or not. Please keep in
> > > mind,
> > > > > not all who fight, win. It really is a level of training,
> persistance
> > > and
> > > > > passion that will win at that level.
> > > > >
> > > > > When it comes to dishonesty in fighting, it needs to be addressed
> in
> > > all
> > > > > areas. There should be honesty at practice, at war and at
> > tournaments.
> > > > > Unfortunately, there are a few that feel honesty isn't as important
> > as
> > > > > winning.
> > > > > How to deal with that situation is complicated due to the entirety
> of
> > > the
> > > > > sport relying on the perception of the person in the armor and the
> > > people
> > > > > watching. Is there obvious cheating? Yes, of course. But where is
> > that
> > > > > line? It's a very difficult question. I wish I had the answers but
> I
> > > > don't.
> > > > > Maybe the answer lies in changing the mind set of new fighters. I
> > know
> > > > for
> > > > > me, I do my best to make sure I am, above all else, honorable. I
> > would
> > > > > never want my friends, family and especially my consort, to feel
> > that I
> > > > am
> > > > > being anything less. Perhaps that example, if made by many, will
> > have a
> > > > > trickle down effect. In reality, though, it has been my observation
> > > that
> > > > > the cheaters are a very small percentage. They are just the most
> > > > > spotlighted.
> > > > >
> > > > > I love the SCA and have decided that I will not let the negativity
> > > change
> > > > > my love of the game. It is disheartening at times and has made me
> > > > question
> > > > > why I play. And I play for the love of all of it; the arts, the
> > people,
> > > > the
> > > > > fighting, the pagentry. All of it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for reading,
> > > > >
> > > > > Vigdis
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 10:31 AM, danoman1000 . <
> > danoman1000 at gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > When people grumble about a tournament not being won cleanly, I
> > think
> > > > > that
> > > > > > it is a symptom of a bigger issue.  The SCA has many varied
> > > activities
> > > > > that
> > > > > > each person can pick and chose from.   Heavy combat is one of the
> > > > oldest
> > > > > of
> > > > > > these activities.  It's very visible, and it draws in a lot of
> our
> > > new
> > > > > > membership.  But it is not the only activity we do.  Yet the fact
> > > > remains
> > > > > > that it is the only way to win the crown.  And the crown makes
> the
> > > > rules
> > > > > > for all of our activities.  I can't speak for anyone else, but
> that
> > > > seems
> > > > > > unfair to me.  It doesn't make sense to me that a person who is
> > good
> > > at
> > > > > > combat is necessarily a good ruler.  And it doesn't make sense to
> > me
> > > to
> > > > > > quibble about the fairness of combat, when it's already unfair
> that
> > > > only
> > > > > > the combatants have the opportunity to rule.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sneferu
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Oct 1, 2015 at 7:06 AM, Duke Alan <dukealan at q.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Good Morning All,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Seems like we need some lively discussion to wake up the Aerie.
> > > > > > > Excellent!  Here we go, and the topic is appropriate
> considering
> > > this
> > > > > > > weekend's festivities...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The SCA claims to be honorable, and is loath to "call shots"
> for
> > > > > others.
> > > > > > > But what happens when someone refuses to "call shots" as good
> in
> > a
> > > > > > > tournament?  Please don't pretend this doesn't happen.  We've
> all
> > > > seen
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > repeatedly.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How do we deal with the person who couldn't win, but refused to
> > > lose?
> > > > > So
> > > > > > > far, we've not done much.  Sometimes they get a Crown out of
> the
> > > > deal,
> > > > > > > which of course dishonors those who did fight fairly and played
> > the
> > > > > game
> > > > > > > with honor.  Those people far outweigh the Cheaters.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh my, is that too harsh?  But PC aside, what do you call
> someone
> > > who
> > > > > > > participates in a game, yet wants to win and not necessarily
> > > > following
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > rules to do so?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I was extremely pleased to watch our last Crown Tourney.  It
> was
> > > > clean,
> > > > > > > and the final winner, in fact, was the winner.  Not the guy who
> > > > refused
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > lose.  I would greatly hope that we would draw a line in the
> sand
> > > and
> > > > > > say,
> > > > > > > that is the standard that we wil hold to.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, how is that done?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Discuss away!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Alan
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Artemisia mailing list
> > > > > > > Artemisia at lists.gallowglass.org
> > > > > > > http://lists.gallowglass.org/mailman/listinfo/artemisia
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Dan Lind
> > > > > > praeco sum, ergo insanus sum
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Artemisia mailing list
> > > > > > Artemisia at lists.gallowglass.org
> > > > > > http://lists.gallowglass.org/mailman/listinfo/artemisia
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Artemisia mailing list
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Dan Lind
> > > > praeco sum, ergo insanus sum
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > >
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dan Lind
> praeco sum, ergo insanus sum
> _______________________________________________
> Artemisia mailing list
> Artemisia at lists.gallowglass.org
> http://lists.gallowglass.org/mailman/listinfo/artemisia
>

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